Spill It! Podcast | Let's Talk Vanity Metrics w/ Heather Crabtree

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Vanity metrics are something new and seasoned business owners have a tendency to get caught up in: “How can I get ore likes/follows/etc!?” But do those numbers *actually* matter? Heather Crabtree and I are chatting all about it in this episode of Spill It! Everything from why we both closed down our Facebook groups to how Heather has let go of follower count altogether after going through *cancer treatments with her daughter.

*Disclaimer: Between the time that this episode was recorded and when it went live, Heather found out that her daughter had relapsed. If you feel compelled, reach out to Heather with love and encouragement as she and her daughter navigate treatment once more.


8:00 | What are “vanity metrics” and do they matter?
8:20 | How you can feel like vanity metrics do matter when you don’t have a large following
11:35 | Don’t optimize for conversions, optimize for conversations
15:15 | What it’s like to “rebuild” a business when life forces you to put your business on the back burner
23:00 | Closing down facebook groups in spite of large numbers
38:01 | Our thoughts on IG getting rid of the likes counter
44:00 | The effects of vanity metrics in social media on younger generations
46:30 | What metrics DO matter?


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Meet Heather Crabtree

Heather Crabtree is a business coach for Savvy female entrepreneurs. She teaches women how to serve, stand out and sell with ease. She is also the founder of Your Savvy Business which includes her three offerings: Your Savvy Business Framework ( her course coming soon!), Your Savvy Business Accelerator (a 90-day group coaching program for launching your next big thing) and Your Savvy Business Circle (a 12-month high touch, high level mastermind.) She is also the host of the podcast Your Savvy Business + Life with Heather Crabtree.

At home, Heather is Mama to two beautiful littles, Wifey to her hunky hubby, lover of people, encourager + optimist. She loves to share business tips, real life mamahood, leadership advice and bring awareness to pediatric cancer.

Connect with Heather online at www.heathercrabtree.com + on Instagram

Full Episode Transcription:

Alright guys, I am super excited about today's guest. She's one of my personal mentors and really she's someone that I've looked up to since before Lady and company was ever a thing before it was created or launched or anything. So I'm super thrilled to welcome the brilliant and beautiful mind of Heather Crabtree to the show. Hey, Heather, thank you so much. today. I am super excited to be here Alex like super excited, I think partly because I I knew that this is all happening. So like I've been excited for you to talk about the podcast. Oh my gosh, you have no idea. Yeah. So Heather and I had been talking About this a month ago, like literally the day that I decided that I was going to start a podcast, I was on a call with Heather and I was like, just tell me all the podcast stuff because I think I'm gonna start one. And she's like, well, I'll be on it. I was like, Okay. Oh my gosh. So okay, why don't you tell everybody who you are what you do a little bit of backstory, all that good stuff. Yeah, so like Alex said, my name is Heather Crabtree. I'm a business coach. And, yeah, I've done all the things I've been entrepreneur for over 15 years. I started in law. I ran an event planning company for 11 years, had a business partner grew the team. And that kind of led into coaching people in the wedding industry because they were looking tour to me and my business partner, you know, to kind of see like, how are you growing your business and really being successful with it, and the industry and then that led to then coaching other people with women specifically coaching them on their businesses. And then we actually sold a bit our event planning company in 2014. And obviously, I went got out of law really quickly went into that and then started my own coaching business. I was just actually pregnant with my son at the time. So I had my daughter London, and I was just getting ready to have another baby when I started this new business and that was Heather capture calm and I started coaching one on one with just inside of that by myself, and which led to then launching a course and then launching a group coaching program and then putting on a large event and then launching them membership site. And then a mastermind and now Yeah, we're going to be coming full circle. All into I'm writing a book now. So all the things have happened over the past but four and a half years. And it's kind of crazy but beautiful way so that's kind of my journey. That's so crazy like so you've been around the block you kind of know your stuff a few times. Yeah. I'm not in my 20s anymore let's just say that oh my gosh. Well and and I know that throughout your your journey there there been some like ups and downs. So do you want to kind of touch on on that? Yeah, well, I mean, I don't know if I can touch on all the ups and downs because it's like, wow, yeah, there's been a lot. And so I mean, the biggest the biggest kind of crazy moment was two years ago when my daughter was diagnosed with cancer. So that was a big crazy moment because I had just came off of I was running my My group coaching program, which was literally successful, I just come off an amazing conference that I had done. And I had just launched my membership, the savvy community. And then the next within like two months, or sorry, two weeks of launching my membership, my daughter was diagnosed with stage four cancer. And my son was for the time and my husband and I, my husband's an attorney. And luckily we were able to, you know, I say the beauty of it is that I was an entrepreneur, and he's not, he works for a firm, but he basically works as an entrepreneur. So we were in a fortunate place that unfortunate as the circumstances were, really our jobs are, our entrepreneurship allowed us to really be able to do what we do and still carry on in our businesses, which I know we'll talk about more kind of how that affected my business and what that looked like for me, but yeah, that was like The biggest turning point I think, also selling my business, selling a business is crazy. And selling that in 2014. And, you know, coming into coaching, like full on was a big transition in my life but was I feel like it all was dots on the map that just it's just part of the journey, right. And I think that we can look at them and say a while that's, that was the hardest part of my life. But also, what I went through, especially with London was the biggest turning point that has beautifully unfolded and bloomed into something that we'll talk about in a little bit. But I'm just I'm so grateful for where I am right now, even though I went through like the depths of the valley over the past two years. So yeah, right. Yeah. And I think that you know, whether it's, you know, people getting sick in your family or literally anything else that could kind of like flip your world upside down. Every entrepreneur goes through something like that. And so yeah, you know, there is, there are seasons in each of our businesses where we have to slow down. And we have to really like, realize the things that we were taking for granted. But then also realize that things that we like we're holding so tight on to that we thought were so important, and that we can let go of some of that stuff and realize that business still works, even if we don't post on social media every single day. Or, you know, those little minute things that we're constantly being told that we have to do in order for our business to quote unquote, work, where that's not always the case. And I think that you know, today we're going to be talking about like just follower count really matter like vanity metrics and that kind of stuff. So maybe right in it, maybe you can kind of talk about your opinion on that first, and then we'll kind of diver dive deeper into it. Yeah. I think it's easier for me now to say this statement. And that is that the metrics, the van, they are vanity metrics, and they don't matter. But I think it's really hard to say that when you're starting out, and you feel like, I feel like a lot of people that have been in the game for a while, or the people that say that I think it's really hard for people that are just coming in going, Well, what do you mean, it doesn't matter? Because all the people that are on top have an amazing following. So of course, you say, it doesn't matter when you have the amazing following. But I don't have that amazing following yet. And I'm feeling less than right. And so I think it's really, I think you have to know where you're at in the in the game. And I also think that it is true, that's the truth, right? It's easier to look back and say those things don't matter, but they don't matter. And I think for me, going through, you know, everything we went through with my daughter, London over the last few years really really I mean, I've had those moments in my life my dad passed away when I was in law school. So that's really made The transition into like, why I quit law because it was like, This is not a dream. But those moments in your life that happened when no matter how big or small they are, those really put you in check and set your priorities and make you go, okay. Like what is really important and and so that's when I always go back to the numbers don't the vanity numbers do not matter numbers matter. numbers do matter. When you need to make sure that you're making money in your business, those numbers matter. You should be looking at those numbers every month. But in terms of like how many followers you have, yes, sometimes does it? Does it mean that the more followers you have that the more money you make? Yes, but that is a lot of times not the case. Especially with you know, I mean, there's so many metrics that people use, right. I think people like to say that they have that following because it does, like ego feeds into that sometimes or that feeds into your ego. If you when you have when your fear based and you're like, Okay, if I didn't have that I wouldn't be worthy enough. Well, that's not a number thing. That's it. That's like a self worth thing that we need to check out. Oh, no, you have to dig deeper. Yeah, you have to dig deeper than the numbers for sure. Yeah. And I mean, it's funny that you even bring that up. Because, you know, even for me when I was first starting out and over the, you know, the first like, year or so that I was in business I. So my love language is words of affirmation. And so and so with words of affirmation. I really needed that. Like, I wanted the comments, and I wanted the more comments, the better. And that would make me feel like I did a really good job, right? Like, okay, I put right post out there, and it would, and if people didn't say anything, I was like, oh, then it's crap. Like immediately made me feel that way. But what I realized is that I can, I can get over that in different ways. By having like, You know, my clients and having communication with them and getting testimonials that way, like, it doesn't have to be the like, every single day on a post, I have to have this like communication with my people telling me that I'm doing a good job. As long as there is an end game as long as I know that, you know, social media post or email or blog post or literally whatever it is, right? The right that these metrics like as long as that is a piece of the puzzle that is false. That is putting somebody in a path to go down some sort of funnel or whatever that is going to eventually make them, you know, become a client or a loyal follower. That's what matters. Exactly. It's all about the conversion, right? And a mentor of mine said, Don't optimize for conversions though, optimize for conversations. And that was like, Oh, I loved it so much, because even though the conversion Matter, it's really about the relationships and people forget about that. Like, if you're not having these conversations or communications with people there, you're not going to get conversions because you're not you're not relating to anybody or you're just a business or not a person. Right. And so I love that. It's about the conversations and it doesn't mean that you have to have conversations with millions of people. It's knowing that the people that you are having conversations with matter and like giving them your all that's what it comes down to me. Yeah. Right. Well, and because if you look at your following, you know, whether it's big or small, you're going to have a percentage of them that are going to be those the warmest leads, right, those people spent the time to dm back on Instagram when they responded to your Instagram story, or you know, the people that will respond to one of your emails that you sent out to your entire list. You know, all of those people, those are going to be the ones that are going to buy from you. Those are the people that matter whether you have a email list of, you know, 50,000 people or 100 people, it doesn't matter, as long as you have those few that are going to be your loyal people that are going to buy your stuff. Yeah, because it doesn't matter. And if the numbers are all relative, right, it doesn't. No matter where you are, you're going to think you don't have enough or you know, you never have enough you always want more. So it's all relative. But I also think that there's people that can have 50,000 followers or subscribers to their email list, but only 10% are engaged. So then what's the point? Are you do you really have 50,000 on your subscribers know you have 10% of that that are really active, but people don't clear out their email list. So because they like that vanity number because then they can use those numbers. Because I will say when you're I think it's changing some but I think if you especially if you're working with bigger companies or brands, the numbers do they want, they look at your numbers, you know, and they want to know what your numbers are. And so there's some aspect of it that people still use those vanity metrics. which is unfortunate because I think it's all about they should be using we should be using like engagement metrics instead of just the subscribers or just the followers. It should be how many? How much of an engaged community or people do you have? Or if you're starting out like you don't have to think about that it's how are like what are the transformations that you're seeing or helping your clients with and then that's the goal right to help people to serve people and so it doesn't really matter how many there are it just matters that you're making a difference. And my is, but I know it's easier said it's easier to say that when you're on the other side of like, okay, I've seen some success and but I mean, here's the other thing. You see the success, there's still the valleys like I've Pete and then drop down into a valley of like the you know, the dark, deep, dark hole. And I would say the last two years of my life are like that. So even when you see success in your business people think, oh, they've made it and they're awesome. And there, they've got it all together. And that's just not how it works. So, yeah, there's that too. Right? Right. Yeah. And I mean, maybe you can touch on a little bit more of the how you're saying like you depth real low, like a, you know, a couple of years. Do you feel like now you're kind of in this like rebuilding stage. So okay, the interesting thing is that so when London was diagnosed, I had just launched my membership. I like I said, I was in that I was running a group coaching program that was going really well I just come off of doing that the August before. I'm doing this huge conference that people still talk about, and I'm excited to do another one. But, um, for me, when when I got diagnosed, I had to be removed from my business. Now the cool part of it was I had set up my business so my business ran without Me, I have a business manager, I have a designer at the time I had, at the time, I had like seven or eight people on my team. So I had built my business within the, you know, the past four years. My goal was to build a team that I that I could own, I would only have to do the things that really fill Fill my cup, and then I was excited about and so I was able to do that I was able to step away we had created most of the content. But a big part of it that I loved, was I love to like interact. I'm a huge I'm an extrovert, I love to interact with people. I, you know, I thrive on that. And so not being able to interact with people really. I mean, I was I was showing up and in a very different way, like I was showing people behind the scenes of what our life was looking like, but it was in the hospital like we lived in the hospital for basically two years and my husband and I just each night like took shifts. And so one one parent would be with one kid and one parent would be Our other child in the hospital and so, obviously there's a lot of emotions and there's a lot of craziness that goes along with that. Like I can't even go through all of that, that just emotional roller coaster that we went through every emotion that you could possibly think of. But that affects your business right and so even though my business was set up and we did really well over the last few years financially, but it changed me and the fact that I I looked back and it was a now it's a beautiful thing and that we depth really low and and i did i mean we did end up losing members in the membership but I also think that was because I don't have my therapist says or my coach, I have a therapist and a coach. So you know, I went through all that too. But she said you're taught what happens is your brain was my brain was tying the success of the membership to the diagnosis of my daughter and those were like wired together. So anytime I would want to do something more with the membership, because it was tied to that diagnosis, it always there's always fear around it. And so there was a little bit of self sabotaging around it too. So, again, a whole other probably podcasts, but those are the mindset, the mental things that I think a lot of us don't talk about, that I went through during that time that really affected my business and how I saw it. Because I felt like I was an outsider from my own business that I had built, which is a really weird feeling to have. For sure. And so yeah, so that's kind of what I went through. Yeah, so last few years. So do you feel like now that you're kind of like, on the other side of that, do you feel like there is did you find yourself feeling like you needed to rebuild in follower count or did you feel like you've realized, oh, that wasn't Yeah. No, but I will say like my Instagram like my, my Instagram followers have not run have not risen. I think Instagram is different now and whatever. But for me during that time from just what people have told me, people related, like I had more engagement, and even now, since that time, now people are more engaging with me because I showed them and this is just from people's mouth that I'm real. And I showed them what really happened in my business and my life what was happening with my family, you know, I was pretty vulnerable and open about all of it. It was kind of therapeutic for me to share on Instagram stories and through my feed and stuff. And because I had really given to my community before that, like building my business was all about building the community and really giving back and I think because I did you know, and this is not like me, tooting my own horn. This is what I've been told, you know, because I I did give back to the community so much that when it was my turn to receive it came out pouring during that time and so for me I think in terms of metrics, my metrics that mean my numbers didn't go down but the engagement percentage was up because and ever since then has been up because they saw me as a real person and not as someone that has it all together and that they can't relate to Yeah, and then here we go. All you know full circle back to relationships. Yeah, I mean, for me, that's what everything comes back to. But yeah, and I think I think now for me, I'm calling it like my rebirth. I told I was telling my business manager this morning that we like need to Sage the room because I just need all of the lake bad energy to go away. Although I don't think there's much bad energy left. But, you know, I just needed to kind of cleanse my business. And I know like, I don't know, if you're not if you're into this stuff or not, I mean, whether you're like in the crystals and staging or whatever, that I've never actually saved a room, it was just kind of a metaphor, but um, but yeah, for me, it's, it's what is possible and I don't have to hold on to the things that maybe aren't working for me the best. And so it's really given me this freedom to make the impact that I want to make and to make the money I want to make, and to serve the people that I want to serve, and not hold on to those numbers. Like I don't care. I really don't care what I care about the numbers I care about is the people that I'm impacting the people that need my help, you know, and that's really all I care about. And I think it's hard when you're especially if you're starting or just like a year end. To hold on to that because you're doing all the things And there's all this stress, and people are telling you, you know, you have to do this, and you have to do that. But I think if there's one thing I can say, it's like, you don't have to do anything and go with what feels right to you, even if you're like, I'm just beginning and I don't really know, really take time to figure it out what is what it is you want for your life. And not just your business, right your life because your business is a part of just a segment of your life. And so what is it that you want? And what do you want that to look like? And then do the things that will lead you there? Yeah, I don't know. I know that seems really simplified, but right as well. And I think that all of this stuff does it kind of goes back to that same mindset of like, Oh, well, it's easy for you to say when you've been through it, or you've done it or you're on the other side or you know, whatever. But it really is that simple. And I think that a lot of people overcomplicate it in the beginning because they just, they're just trying to do it all and they just feel like one. I'm going to Throw spaghetti at the wall and one of these tactics is going to work. And one of these is going to, you know, my follower counts going to grow over here. And I'm going to become an influencer in this thing, and it's just going to work, right, but I'm going to try and just see which one's gonna work. And, you know, you kind of get to a point where you realize I'm trying everything and some of these things aren't serving me and so I just need to cut it and not worry about it. Because other areas of your business are going to feel more in line and it's going to light you up more, which I know that you just closed down your Facebook group. Yes, I did. So want to talk about it. Yeah, this this is super timely. So was that a hard decision? Or do you feel like that was like an easy like, Oh, yeah, I This doesn't feel aligned. I'm just going to shut it down. It's interesting. I feel both and the reason being is because I started this business with a Facebook group, like that's what really made my business explode. So it wasn't this one actually had One before that was pretty large, and it got I think there's a tipping point where Facebook groups get too large? Well, I think most I think a lot of people use their Facebook groups not in the right way. And I think it's because they're trying to model the way that everybody used to use them. So I don't think that you Your goal should be to grow your Facebook group to like thousands and thousands of people. For me, if it's a free Facebook group, first of all, I think it should be where you're converting people and so people shouldn't stay in there. You shouldn't continually get like tons of people in there without people leaving in my eyes, because the goal is to get them on to the next thing, actually had this conversation. I did a live and my last Facebook group before I closed it, I don't know a few months ago, and I said, Look, if you've been in here for a year and you're still lingering and this free group, something's not connecting with you. You need to Move on, like, you're not, we're not meant to like, just get all the free stuff. And you if you think you're going to have a successful business, by downloading all the free things or just doing the free things and not investing in yourself to whatever level that is for you, that doesn't mean you have to invest thousands. But if you're not investing in your business, guess what, you're not going to have a business and you don't. There's no way you're really passionate about it. Again, I'm not saying you have to invest thousands at the beginning. But I mean, if you're only participating in the free things, then you got it all wrong. And so for me, Facebook groups became that where it was all about the numbers of I have 40 you know, I have, I have 5000 I have 10,000, I have 15, I have 40 and it's like, okay, but great, how many of those people are actually engaging, number one. Number two, how many of actually those people are like successful in their business or are using the things that you're teaching them? You could just if that's not happening, then your Facebook group Not doing its job. So I definitely think there's ways to use Facebook groups especially, you know, you know i i'm really moving to only paid Facebook group so I'll have three faith three paid Facebook groups for my three things that I'm going to have will actually for because the event, but that's it I'm not doing free Facebook groups now that could change. I don't know, I'm not gonna say never. But I think for me, the thing that happened is that's how I started and then I grew it. And so the way that Facebook groups ran then, I mean, I've had people tell me, which I think is weird. I was in Facebook groups before, but I've had a lot of people that in my community that was the first Facebook group that they were in. So like I was the first Facebook group they ever were n and that goes back, you know, like four years. And so it just you ran things differently than they were used differently. And I think so, this is kind of where the numbers do matter. But again, it's about engagement and converting people to like an converting just means that you're helping them in one aspect. And so they want more. So it's not about just, oh, you're just converting in there, you're just there like a robot, you know? And so that those are the metrics that I care about. So if you do have a free Facebook group, it's like, how is it for me, most people are using them as like the beginning of their funnel. If I'm, if I'm telling people if I'm, you know, as a coach, as a consultant, as a strategy, if you're using it as a funnel, then it needs to be useful, but it also needs to get people to the next step. So they're getting out of your free Facebook group and they're actually paying you in something else. If that's not happening, then you're doing it wrong. Right. And sometimes the people that that go into a Facebook group, like you were saying, sometimes they just were never going to convert either. And know if you get if you get a whole bunch of those people into one group all at one time. Then your Facebook group was never going to work anyway. And I also found that, that Facebook groups can absolutely be a wonderful tool for certain types of businesses with certain types of target markets. But if you are wanting to work with, you know, some people that have maybe been, you know, split specifically like b2b businesses, right? If you're wanting to work with other business owners that are, you know, also that like they've been in business for, I don't know, five plus years, the majority of those people aren't going to be in Facebook groups anymore. And if they are everyone's right, not free ones, right, they're definitely not going to be free and if but if they are in free ones, then those are like the DI wires forever. And well, I will say there's an exception to that there are people that I know that have Facebook groups, and they're selling really high ticket things, but their whole goal with the Facebook group is just a place for people to go and to see if that that person is like the right fit for them. So there's a couple of friends that I have, that they have free Facebook groups, they have high ticket item things. And their Facebook group is like that point of entry for them. But really, when you get in the group, it's like, Okay, how can I serve you, you know, like, what is your? What is your problem? And are you the right fit for my service. So it's really a point of like getting them to that high ticket thing. And people are going there because they know it's going to be people at that same level. So I think they can work that way. You just have to set them up that way. And a lot of people don't utilize them in the proper way. So they just build this audience a free and it's like, okay, so no one's buying your stuff. And especially if you have a membership, so I'll give this advice to anyone that's like, online, b2b and you're doing a membership. If you have a free group and it becomes successful so this is what happened to me my in became really successful. But then I had a membership but then people like Well, but why wouldn't I just go in the free group and ask the question, or why wouldn't I ask you that there? Well, I'm not there. But then they would ask other people. So then it was almost like self sabotage. Because instead of converting people to the membership, they were then asked, finding the other people in the group that they could either asked for free, or that, that were specific to their question, and I'm like, Okay, this is total opposite of what I wanted. And so that's why I shut down the first one. And then the second one recently, I shut down just because it wasn't a good fit for me anymore. It just, I wasn't excited about it, too. I've been running Facebook groups for close to five years now like a four and a half, five years. And that's the way I started my business and my business has definitely seen ups and downs but where I'm headed, it just wasn't aligning with where I was going. And so I'm coming out with a whole new basically model for my business. Um, and and the free Facebook group just didn't fit within it. It was really just a time suck for my team. Because my, my director of happiness was the one that was running it. And yeah, it just it wasn't, it wasn't doing what it needed to do and it was taking away like I was having to pay her to be in there to do stuff. And I didn't want to show up in there because I really wanted to give my time to my membership gals. So, yeah, so you have to really make sure that works for your business. And not that's another example of do what fits for you and your business. And that comes back to like, what is your vision for your business, like if you don't know where you're headed, then it's easy to do these other things that people are telling you to do, because you can't see if they align with where you're going if you don't know where that place is. So you have to like figure that out. First, your vision where you're headed before you can determine whether these things are a good strategy or a good fit for your business. I know you're the type of business owner who has goals in her business. Heck, they've gotten you this far right? You write your goals down, you share them with your friends, and you probably even have the best of intentions when you sit down to work on tasks that are supposed to help you reach those five figure months. So why haven't you hit them yet? It's not for a lack of trying, or a lack of believing that you're capable. Nah, I know that you know, you're meant to be a 10 k a month business. It's that you don't have a clear plan of action to actually make the flipping thing happen already. Go getters gang is an online membership designed to help you prioritize, organize and implement income producing tasks so you can finally reach the next level in your business. Inside go getters gang you have access to all sorts of productivity boosting assets like quarterly planning sessions, monthly coaching calls and co working hours as well as courses Trello templates and loads of worksheets to help you work through The plans that you set in your business to reach those goals. And the best part is that you can get started right now today for just $67. So don't waste any more time on tasks that are supposed to help you up level and instead head over to go getters game calm and get to creating intentional plans that will actually help you reach the next level of success and freedom in your business. Right and it's hilarious that you were bringing up the reason why you shut down your first Facebook group because of the membership because that's exactly where I am. By the time that the code comes out. It will actually have shut down my facebook group, because I have a membership. And I the exact same thing has been happening in mine as well. So, you know it is it's all about what your business is currently what your current business model is. And what what working and what's not and just cut what's not. And you know, make sure that you're really focusing on serving your people in the ways that not only feel good, but that are working for you. And so I know for me, I'm going to be moving over more to like Instagram, and building my community over there. Is that what you're doing to? Yeah, and so I'm going to try some cool things that we have thought out for Instagram. I love Instagram, I'd like it's my jam. So I do you know, I love doing stories. I usually do them every day and your greatest stories. So you're, you're great on Instagram. I love watching your Instagram, and your very young brand. You're always like, really fun and colorful. And I'm like, the mom who has a ponytail and basically, you know, Oh, really? I live in Arizona where it's warm. So um, so that's just yeah, part of it. But yeah, I think for us, yeah, doing some fun things with Instagram. And also, you know, for you know, and I was just saying, like tested out the you know, the metrics when we talk about metrics because that's, you know, like we're coming back to test things out you have to you can try them but you have to analyze them and review them to see if they're actually working. So I would say for Instagram, you know, really look at your insights and look at what stories you do convert and, you know, you know, people I make a lot of connections through Instagram, not to say that I sell directly. I don't know if I can technically say that, that I sell directly a lot. But because of the conversations that I have in my DMS with a ton of people every day, that's how I get clients or, you know, members or whatever, students and myself because I've made that relationship connection with them on Instagram, so I think it's a great but what you have to analyze you can't just be doing it For the sake of doing it and then also just within the platform like what our stories you know, I think stories are the way to go. I personally don't post a ton of my feet I I do it like once or twice a week for me now is that I'm not an Instagram Expert. So please don't take my advice is like the word because I don't know. But for me, I just connect more. The way that I communicate is vocally with people. So stories is just my jam. I love doing stories. But I also think you have to be creative with it like it can't be boring and it just be you know, your head talking all the time. Like be creative with the gifts and the stickers and the colors and you know, all this stuff, the options that they have, test them out, see if they work for you, and then if they don't like don't use those and use the things that work but you have to unless you look at your message Your numbers you don't know those things, right? And those are the metrics that matter. It's not so much the like count that you get on a picture. It's going to be more of the like engagement and the conversation that is sparked from the story or whatever it is that you're putting out there. Those are the things that matter. And which there I heard, and I don't know if they've started rolling it out yet or not, but Instagram is supposed to be hiding, like counts. Did you hear that? Yes, I did. And I think they have for some people, but I think it's one of those Instagram things that like they're testing it and they'll roll it out to everyone once but I think it's it, I love the idea of it. And I get I mean I get healthy and the amount of likes and I have a healthy amount of followers for me, but I would be okay with having all of that gone because I think it takes it really puts everybody on the same level. And so it's not about Because I think also with Instagram a lot of people got to the numbers I'm not saying everyone but and I'm not saying even a majority but there are people that got to where they are because they paid for it. I mean they paid for likes, and I think all of that just is not helping you. You know it's not you're not attracting your clients, the people that you really want to work with, which isn't helping your business. So I think it's nice to have everybody on a level playing field because I think it makes you go back to the basics and makes you actually do the work and you actually have to be getting results and helping people not just you know, the vanity metrics anymore so I'm all for I'm say go for it and then it makes everybody just, you know, get back to do it. Not that you have to be working 24 seven or have to you know, continually be putting in time but I think it it takes away from, you know, not that I'm against pay for play, you know, pay to play, because I get Instagram ads and all that. I think that's different. Yeah, and Facebook ads and all that let's different and I am totally for all that, but I do think and I also like that Instagram and Facebook, they're they evolve, you know, and it's not just stagnant and just because they can do it, it's also because they see what people are liking and what what people aren't and, you know, they they move with, I think there's a lot to learn from, you know, Facebook and Instagram, which is obviously the one in the same now. But um, yeah, that the way that they look, they really pay attention to what their users are doing and what they what they're asking for and what they do like and what they don't like. And I think there's a lot to say a lot to learn as a business owner from those things to be willing to change to be willing to shift to be willing to pivot and be okay with that as long it's it's setting you on the trajectory to reach the vision that you have for your company. Right? And, you know, alongside the likes and all of that stuff that they're going to be taking away, which I think is amazing for literally all the same reasons that you just said. But I also there was like this this period a couple of months ago, where they were really cracking down on like, all of the bots. And so people were like, losing followers by like, I mean, some Yeah, had like thousands and thousands of followers just drop off overnight. And yeah, I mean, it was like, mass hysteria. Oh, these people are like, Oh, my gosh, what is going on? But I mean, at the end of the day, those people weren't engaging with you anyway. And so right, it was literally just so that you could see that number when somebody clicked on your, on your profile like that was the only purpose that it served, but it didn't show anything about you or about your business or about you as an influencer. Because if people were to go and look at your photos, you know, let's just say, you know, imaginary person has like, you know, thousands and thousands and thousands of followers, but then all of them are bots because they paid for them or because people were, you know, crappy and put bots out there and had them follow you, then you're in and then your engagement is crap, then it doesn't matter that you had that many thousands of followers, you know? Yeah, I've been looking at analytics for a while and not just the insights. But there was a there was a service that I was using that I could see other people's it wasn't like a it wasn't like, follow unfollow. I don't pay attention. I don't pay attention to people that unfollow me like, I just don't care. Because I'm like, Okay, great. I wasn't for you. It's great. But for me, I was paying attention to people and there was a I can't remember it was called down because I don't use it anymore. But anyway, you could see the engagement, the percentage of the engagement of their audience so like, they might have 100,000, but they're Engagement percentage is like 2%. I'm like, Okay, well, doesn't matter if you have 100,000 followers 2% is engaging with you like there's a problem here. Um, so yeah, I think all those again, I think it's about using the metrics to tell you what's working and what's not. But that's not the followers and the likes per se. It's really about are people conversing? Are they having conversations with you? Are they wanting more? Are they engaging with your stuff, and I get that likes and followers can can go to that. But I think you have to look past that. I think you have to look more deeper into the insights and the numbers and the metrics, instead of just that, because that really is not, you know, the thing that's going to tell you whether what you're doing is working or not. I mean, I mean, there's a whole bunch of things I've seen in this online world. I know about Lot of people and I won't name names, but you know, they pay people to like their photos. And I can see who does it because almost all of them have the same number of likes per photo every time they post a photo. So there's these groups out there that they'll like, it's not them liking each other, but they've paid people to like, like, and it's the same people, it's, it's like the same, you know, like you would have your like group of people that are your friends with, and you pay somebody and that person is liking all of your photos. So I'm not saying everyone does that. And again, I'm not saying the majority of people do that. But I know people that do it, and I think it's interesting for me and I, the ways that I can see it is because again, all that same, all those same people have about the same number of likes each time. So which is fine again, I just, I just don't care. So I mean, maybe I'm in the minority of that, but I just don't care how many likes i get i but i I also think that, you know, what does scare me about it. This is, is that as a mom to see that how it affects people, and I'm not saying it doesn't affect me at all, like, there are definitely when you have a bad day, and then you post something on Instagram and like no one, you know, you have like, whatever your number is, you know, and you're like, oh, gosh, that got no, no, people must not like it, but I'm not like, oh, people don't like me, you know what I mean? I just, I also think that comes with a like, I'm old. You know, wisdom comes with age. And I also think that I didn't, I didn't grow up in a world that we have, like, we've always had that so when my kids that's all they know. So either my kids have Instagram or Facebook or anything because I'm like that over on the helicopter mom, but, um, but they're still young. But I mean, I worry about, you know, just the anxiety and the depression that can come from like those vanity metrics and I'm just like, I don't want want my kids to grow up in that? But it really is happening, especially in entrepreneurship. I see it all the time. And I mean, again, I'm not immune to it. It's happened to me where you have a bad day and you're like, oh, gosh, then then you don't you get a bad comment or you get not many likes, and that just feeds into that bad day. Silly as it is so silly. And I think for me, because I've had like these traumatic events happen in my life, that every day no matter what, not just with social media, but with everything. At the end of the day, I'm like, What am I grateful for? And what can I see the beauty like, what's the beauty that can come out of that day and and really look at priorities and perspective, because I think if you don't do that, then you can really lean into the numbers and the metrics and the van, specifically the vanity metrics and that can really, you can attach yourself to that and I see that happening. And so that's the unfortunate part of like, all the metrics. But I love seeing numbers too. So there's the I think the vanity is the, you know, the bad word in there. The metrics can be so beautiful. I mean, you need to know the numbers for in your business for everything. So, you know, because you need to be able to react and adapt based on those numbers. So numbers are great. It's just when we're using them and properly that really is not great. Right? So okay, to wrap up everything that you just said into like a pretty little bow. Can you like, just maybe like rapid fire out some like metrics that actually do matter that people should pay attention to? And then the ones that you're like, these are the ones that at least for you, you you don't pay attention to? Yeah, so Okay, I'll tell you the ones that I pay attention to, and it's on everything right I saw on Instagram, I pay attention to my insights. So you can go in, if you have a business account, look at your insights, see the type of people what their age, it's really great for ideal client and stuff too, because you'll they'll tell you like the age range of the people that are following you, and engaging with you what post, it'll tell you, you know, what are the best posts you can get, I mean, you can really dive into this stuff. So I encourage you to look at that stuff. If you're a business owner, because that's important stuff like what you want to make sure that anything that you're using your energy for, that is actually working or that you're tweaking it or adapting so that it does work. Because you don't want to be putting effort towards things that aren't working and aren't taking you to your vision where you want to go. So that's number one on Instagram is the insights. Also, you know, how many people when I actually say stuff and I say DM me, how many people DM me, I have a lot of people that will DM me, I'll talk about a product or service that I'm doing. And I'll say give me feedback on it or if you're interested in being a part of this, that DMV We have the conversation and my DNS and then they become, you know, a student or a member or a client. So a lot of that happens. So make sure that you're using your DMZ because everything can go down there, you know, like you, you really can get business there, but you have to have to start that conversation right? So and that's with Instagram. As far as like my email list, I look at engagement when I send out an email so we don't do weekly emails we do it differently. So we're we set up ours to be like a loop. So once people go through things and they don't purchase then you get into like the nurture sequence right? And but those are already set up. And those actually go back to my podcast because that's my free content right now. And so we take you back to that and so I look at the numbers how many people opened it, how many people clicked? How many I my podcast, I look how many you know, subscribers Do I have how many people are sharing It, those are numbers to look at. on Facebook, like if you're doing obviously we can go into the whole page. But these will be like organic numbers that you would have. Because definitely if you're doing Facebook, Instagram ads, any of that kind of stuff, you definitely want to be paying attention to metrics there because you're paying. Yeah, those are super important. But I feel like that's a little more advanced. I don't want to go. And it could be a whole different podcast, but definitely look at those. Um, yeah, I mean, I guess for me, also, the numbers I look at are just the things the products that I have, which really has informed me that I, you know, into this new rebirth and transition, I'm headed into, like, What do I want? What is the model that I'm going to be using and what does that look like? And how does that build throughout my business? And so really looking at the numbers, the transformations that you're you're helping people make, you know, getting, getting feedback from them, what worked What didn't Don't be afraid of That so those numbers matter of, of, and numbers and like feedback, I guess and being okay with people saying with I guess being a little bit more critical about what worked, what didn't how they can improve. Yeah, that those are the numbers that I pay attention to. I'm trying to think of other things that I pay attention to there's probably more but off the off the cuff. that's those are the things that I would say. So good. Thank you so much for for imparting all of your wisdom on us today. Well, thank you for having me. I am I'm, I adore you. And I think what you're doing is amazing. And just watching kind of your growth has been super fun too. And I know you're going to do even more amazing things. So it's that I think that's the fun thing for me as a coach to see how people are progressing and yeah, really moving forward towards you know where they're headed. I think it's really cool to watch. But thank you so much. You're welcome. Hey guys just popping in here at the end of the episode to let you know that between the time This episode was recorded and when it went live, Heather found out that her daughter had relapsed. If you feel compelled reach out to Heather with love and encouragement as she and her daughter navigate treatment. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of the spill at podcast. Here's what I'd love for you to do next, take a quick screenshot of this episode that you're listening to right now and share it on your Instagram stories so your friends can hear about the show too. And then I'd love you for real for real if you head on over to iTunes to leave a rating and review and if you want access to the show notes, links and downloadable that were mentioned in this episode, head to spill it podcast.com and don't forget to subscribe so you never miss a future episode.

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Spill It! with Alex Lawless is a roundtable-style podcast that brings a unique spin to online business strategy by creating a space for seasoned entrepreneurs to hold judgment-free and opinion-based conversations on industry topics, norms, and cliches. View more episodes….

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